and non elect god knows

But this is incoherent with his doctrine of election as unconditional. Given these doctrines of grace it is incoherent to talk about what you need to do, if God has worked in your heart. On Calvinism salvation is just what God will do in you and apart from you. In his attempt to inject some good news into his doctrines of grace he has nullified his own doctrines. He should more accurately indicate that these particular experiences are the evidences of a persons unconditional election. In that Lutzer requires the sinner to do something to know that are unconditionally elect, he renders his doctrine inconsistent and irrelevant while making his explanation incoherent and self-refuting when you do this condition, that is, believe you will know you are unconditionally elect and effectually called, which by definition states you cant do anything with respect to your salvation. Here he seeks to answer the question, Who are the elect? Lutzer states, Finally, I want to zero in on the word elect. Who shall lay anything to the charge of Gods elect? So who are the elect? Well you say I dont like that at all. He is a Calvinist and therefore holds to a doctrine of unconditional election. - Open-Air Street Preaching, Eric Holmberg Open-Air Preaching at Kentucky Derby, The Table Of The Lord - The Purpose Of Communion by Eric Svendsen, The divine testimony concerning man is, that he is a sinner. And if the Calvinist argues that the people are to do these things, to be consistent with his doctrines of unconditional election and irresistible grace or effectual call, he must only mean this in an instrumental sense. Apr 17, 2006. Florida couple charged in death of baby left in hot car overnight after And in the remainder of the New Testament it is used nine times: Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? But inconsistent with this, Lutzer presents this election as dependent upon what you need to do. Here is what you need to do to know you are among the elect to believe on Jesus, stop trusting your goodness, trust wholly in the work of Christ, transfer your trust to Jesus alone. But these conditions for which the sinner is responsible to do are obviously incoherent with Lutzers doctrine of unconditional election and irresistible grace.. Welcome to Christianity.SE. The rain falls upon rocky mountains and waste deserts as well as on the fruitful valleys; so also, God suffers the Gospel to fall on the ears of the non-elect. The power of the Gospel is one of Gods agencies for holding in check the wickedness of the world. Practically it has no implications or meaning. Determinism precludes presenting Christ as the savior of all sinners, who upon hearing the gospel can receive Christ and be saved. The Elect Are the Jews and/or the People or Nation of Israel I know that I said this article would concern itself with the body of people the New Testament calls "elect" and "chosen." Yet, there are Bible teachers who insists that the elect people of God in the New Testament are the Jews or the nation of Israel. It is necessary, but it is resistible. Doesnt this make God unfair, unloving, and unmerciful as well as the author of sin? If I seek God, does that mean that I MUST be elect, according to Calvinism? As such, God will bring about in the elect whatever needs to occur in their desires, attitudes, beliefs and actions so that they will savingly believe on Jesus. God will work to overcome their darkness, overcome their unbelief and they will savingly believe on Jesus. In that election or salvation is unconditional, this is solely the work of God. Lutzer ends up telling people the good news that they can be saved by faith, and that they must believe. To call people to believe on Jesus, stop trusting your goodness, trust wholly in in the work of Christ transfer your trust to Jesus alone, come to Christ in humble repentance and receive by faith the gift of eternal life, and for them to actually respond positively and believe, is no proof at all of an unconditional election at work. Lutzer is convinced his doctrine of unconditional election is taught in Scripture. Am I included? Hence, where has the gospel gone? Jesus said that the days would be shortened for the elects sake, not the sake of the elect and the non-elect (Matthew 24:22). As a Calvinist, if Lutzer were to be consistent with his soteriological doctrines, what he should be telling people is that because of your total inability as a sinner, you have nothing to do with anything having to do with God and salvation, therefore you cannot even believe. This universal call is an essential part of the gospel as good news and implies the sinners ability and responsibility to believe the gospel and be saved. Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Thats reasoning in a circle. Does God choose who will believe? | Baptist Press Read what Jesus says in Matthew 21:42-43: Jesus said to them, Did you never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same was made the head of the corner. Presuming it to be true, it therefore becomes the explanation of a persons believing. How he pleads with God against Israel: Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have broken down your altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But how does God answer him? It is they who must accept the gospel. If God Is So Happy, Why Did He Create the Non-Elect? You must believe to be saved. If we can learn anything from this passage in Isaiah it is that God is only interested in hearing heartfelt prayers. In other words, in Isaiah's mind the godness of God includes foreknowledge of everything that comes to pass. It has to do with the way of salvation for the hearer. Is the following rationale for sharing the gospel consistent with reformed theology? Hello, I have a question concerning God's relationship with the non-elect (or those who were not appointed to be saved) or those who were not chosen or those whom the Father did not give to the Son or those who were destined to stumble 1 Peter 2:8, etc, etc.. (1) Does God have a genuine care for their health, wellbeing, etc, seeing as they have an eternity of torment which awaits? Does God REALLY Love Everyone? - SOTERIOLOGY 101 Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 1st Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. How does Lutzer answer his question, So who are the elect? Lutzer attacks it head-on. Note first that given unconditional election, this promise of knowing the status of our eternal destiny seems strange in that Calvinists typically respond to such an inquiry as being a futile attempt to pry into the secret counsels of God. Sometimes it is referring to certain individuals whom God chose to a certain calling or position, such as that of a priest or a prophet. The answer is nothing. Despite Lutzers leading us to believe otherwise, nothing said here is up to the person themselves to do. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." Furthermore, if we are talking about how one can know they are elect, the corollary also applies, that is, we should be able to know who are the non-elect or reprobate. According to Lutzer's soteriology a person cannot resist the Spirit's work. rev2023.7.7.43526. Lets carefully examine what he does. But it could just as well be that they believe because they are responding to the good news of the gospel. According to Catholics, who are "the elect"? Knowledge of ones unconditional election has no relevance. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ; even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without blemish before him in love; having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire, to the praise of the glory of his grace, by which he freely bestowed favor on us in the Beloved, in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him to an administration of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, in him; in whom also we were assigned an inheritance, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be to the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation, in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of Gods own possession, to the praise of his glory. For more information, please see our And when salvation is understood as the Bible presents it as good news, it is calling all people to believe and be saved. The Spirit will continue to work until he has produced in you the effect he has predetermined faith. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. That is truly the sixty-thousand-dollar question! The gospel calls all sinners to trust in Christ so that we may be saved. It also talks about those who persist in this rejection as hardening their hearts. His foreknowledge in the context of election doesnt mean his looking ahead to see what we will do and then reacting. They want to be saved and therefore they believe. Calvinists admit their theology contains logical and moral difficulties. Here's what you need to know. 14, 16). This is obviously incoherent. Israel was Gods chosen nation, but they were spiritually unfaithful to Him. In fact, Gods elect are the lowly things of the world, and the things that are despised, and the things that are not so that we could never boast that God chose us because we were better (1 Corinthians 1:26-29). A Psalm of David. Beloved, I beg you as foreigners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul. They are not things that the persons themselves are called upon to do in the sense that the decision comes from them and they could do otherwise. Grace is extended only to the elect. Do the Non-Elect Have a Chance to Repent? - YouTube Instead, it continually emphasizes that God elects to eternal salvation. There is no good news in Calvinist soteriology. This scenario is actually affirmed by Lutzer when he states, What you need to do Lutzer calls for people to respond to God and Christ. PDF Calvinism vs. Arminianism vs. Evangelicalism The 5 Points of Ephesians 1:3-14. Browse other questions tagged, Like any library, Christianity Stack Exchange offers great information, but, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. (LogOut/ What you need to do, if God has worked in your heart, is to believe on Jesus, stop trusting your goodness, trust wholly in the work of Christ, transfer your trust to Jesus alone and then you will know that you are elect. The whole matter seem to be tautological. It is a supernatural event that happens upon the sinner believing. Paul implied that no one can lay a charge against the elect because God justifies them. Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. They will be surprised to learn that they never knew God. But this is in conflict with the free will implications of Lutzers statement that I have pointed out above. His unconditional election confuses the message, and rather than pointing people to Christ as sufficient for their salvation and in whom their salvation is found and may be obtained through faith, he sends the sinner on a fact finding mission regarding whether or not God has unconditionally elected them to salvation. New Season Prophetic Prayers and Declarations [NSPPD] || 6th - Facebook Since no sinner can want God (total inability), God must and does cause his elect to want him. It is these incoherencies that need to be pointed out. As we see here with Lutzers gospel invitation, the issue becomes informing people about how to detect whether or not they are unconditionally elect. Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul. They say it sounds harsh or that it can sound like the elect are boasting. Note that Lutzer ultimately abandons the unconditionality of his doctrine of election by recognizing that the sinner needs to do something to know he is among the unconditionally elect and receive salvation or the gift of eternal life. But note that it is incoherent to tell someone their salvation is unconditional and then present salvation as conditional by calling upon them to do something to be saved. This has to do with the presuppositions involved. That, my friend, is where the rubber meets the road, and not in trying to second guess God. Neither does the biblical gospel involve how to find out whether or not you are among those unconditionally chosen by God to be saved. saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. But as I pointed out elsewhere, this experience is untrustworthy, because according to Calvin the Spirit can give such evidences for a time to the non-elect, but remove his presence in the end. It has nothing to do with the person who is totally passive with regard to their eternal salvation and destiny. Since this is a Christian answer site I can only assume that you are asking about seeking the God of the Bible, and I will answer it in that context (from the Bible). According as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day. David says, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, a stumbling block, and a retribution to them. There is nothing he can do to change his status. When you perform the conditional act of believing you will know you are unconditionally elect. Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. Some wonder what we, the elect, did to deserve being elect and saved. As weve seen, this is the right answer to the question, Who are Gods elect? The Body of Christ consists only of the elect whom God chose in eternity. We also see how inconsistent these doctrines are with the good news of the gospel. When Lutzer instructs people to detect their unconditional election or reprobation by believing or not believing, and yet Lutzer also makes salvation conditional and dependent upon whether one believes or not, unconditional election losses its substance and meaning. Whom he justified, those he also glorified (Romans 8:29-30). Jesus' parable of the good seed which fell on different kinds of ground reinforces the idea of a half-hearted faith not being genuine (Mt 13:18-23). Gods sheep will hear their Shepherds voice and follow Him (John 10:27) when God sees fit to regenerate them. I thought this was information no one is privy too. Like Deuteronomy 7:6, Deuteronomy 14:2 says, For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples who are on the face of the earth. There are other similar statements in the Old Testament. But also, inconsistently, Lutzer makes it seem that the sinner themselves is responsible for their believing. And as to the non-Calvinists point about the insincerity of offering the gospel to the non-elect, the Calvinist typically responds by But we do not know who the elect are. So it is surprising that Lutzer is going to tell us how we can know who the elect are and whether we are among them. What does that mean? It means His knowing His elect children from before the beginning of the world: For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. I know that I said this article would concern itself with the body of people the New Testament calls elect and chosen. Yet, there are Bible teachers who insists that the elect people of God in the New Testament are the Jews or the nation of Israel. For Further Reading: Is there a distinction between the diminutive suffixes -l and -chen? What is conditional election? | GotQuestions.org So Lutzers soteriology is a matter of who can and cannot be saved. God does not cause the one or the other on the basis of unconditional election. How do we know? We are instructed to do it! In other words, a spiritually dead person cannot seek after God. Peter repeats this thought: Because it is contained in Scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, chosen, and precious: He who believes in him will not be disappointed. For you who believe therefore is the honor, but for those who are disobedient, The stone which the builders rejected, has become the chief cornerstone, and, a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense. For they stumble at the word, being disobedient, to which also they were appointed. The Spirit will cause you to believe. When this doctrine of unconditional election is lurking behind the scenes, it turns the gospel and human responsibility on its head. They either resist the Spirit and reject the salvation being offered or humble themselves in accord with the Spirits working and believe. One of the weaknesses of RT in this regard is that it seems to assume (case in point: your 3rd paragraph) that once the seeking starts it will culminate in saving faith. There is just news as to the way things have been predetermined to be. The Merciful Mystery of Unconditional Election | Desiring God But none of these propositions need be the explanation of what happens when a person believes. We therefore have no reason to see any of this as the working of an unconditional election. But again, that is not at all what the Bible teaches about the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. As much as Lutzer feels bound by his traditional doctrine of unconditional election and to somehow relate that to the gospel, we can see that Lutzer must, in the end, affirm the universal and conditional elements of the message of salvation for it to be good news. He is going to tell sinners what they must do to be saved. Dr. Erwin Lutzer is pastor of the Moody Church in Chicago. That has to be presupposed and read into the situation as the cause of why a person believes. Calvinism and the Problem of Damnation and Hell - SOTERIOLOGY 101 The gospel as good news goes by the wayside. In the Old Testament, God uses it to refer to the nation of Israel: For you are a holy people to the LORD your God. I made a minor edit that should bring this on topic. Nevertheless, like it or not, God has from eternity elected a seed that He then plants in time, for whom Christ died, to whom He gives faith, and whom He justifies and sanctifies and will glorify with His only begotten Son. So we're back to where we started; namely, attempting to find an answer to your question of whether or not God "rejects" a person he knows is not one of his elect. +1. Again, I do not have a clear and unambiguous answer for you. Think about it. Cookie Notice From maintaining eye contact to managing arousal, here's her ultimate . While I'm taking a risk by quoting just one verse--and only a portion of a verse at that--to support my contention, I'll venture forth, going where angels fear to tread: "There is none that seeketh after God" (Romans 3:11b). And since he calls all to salvation, he enables all to that end. The Body of Christ, then, consists of elect and non-elect Christians. It is they who do not want to humble themselves, trust and believe. God's sheep will hear their Shepherd's voice and follow Him (John 10:27) when God sees fit to regenerate them. Countering the Forcecage spell with reactions? Decretum horribile. So how can you or I or anyone else find out whether or not you are a member of the unconditionally elect? According to Lutzer, What you need to do, if God has worked in your heart, is to believe on Jesus, stop trusting your goodness, trust wholly in the work of Christ, transfer your trust to Jesus alone and then you will know that you are elect. The "elect of God" is a theological phrase that refers to predestination. Why doesnt everyone respond positively to the Gospel? But, in fact, Peter says that their obedience to the Gospel and their being sprinkled with Jesus blood follows from their election, not the other way around. He boldly asserts you can find out whether or not you are a member of the unconditionally elect. So how are we going to find out our status as unconditionally elect or one of the reprobate? In short, Jesus is teaching us to self-sacrificially love everyone, even our worst enemies, because that reflects the very nature of God Himself. As long as I can know I am among the elect that is fine. They are called the "elect" because that word denotes "determining beforehand," "ordaining," "deciding ahead of time." Every four years in the U.S., we "elect" a Presidenti.e., we choose who will serve in that office. Even sticking to this one passage, we can see that it does not support the Arminian system. I find it curious that in an age that loves fictional characters who are in some way elect, the children of aliens or supernatural beingsSuperman, Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, etc.so many people, even professing Christians, despise the biblical teaching of election. It is not God who does not love them nor desire their salvation. So how does Lutzer provide resolution to his problematic doctrine of unconditional election? It speaks of people refusing to believe to the damnation of their souls. The non-Calvinist maintains that God wants to save them. Can you think about how God can care less about those he has decided not to save in created them for the very purpose of predestining them to eternal damnation and separation from himself. It presupposes the truth of unconditional election and merely presumes it to be the explanation of the sinners repentance and faith at the invitation for them to come to Christ and be saved. 3:10-12). The non-Calvinist agrees that the salvation of a sinner is a work of the Spirit. Then youll know you are a member of the elect.[1]. Published on June 24, 2022. He restores my soul. When Lutzer calls sinners to do something it is not as if they can know that by doing those things that they are unconditionally elected to salvation. Amen. Only those thus called can presume that they are among the unconditionally elect. The message of Gods love and grace demonstrated in Christ in whom salvation can be found through believing is transformed into a dark mystery. Or dont you know what the Scripture says about Elijah? How then do we know that the believing in Jesus is a direct result of their unconditional election? reformed-theology predestination unconditional-election Share Improve this question edited Oct 23, 2014 at 11:36 curiousdannii 19.4k 14 53 116 asked Oct 23, 2014 at 9:34 What Does Predestination Mean for the Non-Elect? - Ligonier Ministries Unconditional election is therefore a concept foreign to the gospel as good news. It has no part in a message of truly good news. In fact, unconditional election shuts down the message as good news., Given Lutzers deterministic definition of election, the only way the question who are the elect? can be answered is by examining what the individual is experiencing. Repent, and believe in the Good News. We obey Jesus by believing the Gospel. There is good news to be proclaimed and heard. The answer is exceedingly simple: believe! I am not saying that Calvinists are going to hell or anything radical like that. I was asking more about "answering God's call" than the Baptism itself. But this seems to be circular reasoning, or at least mere presumption that unconditional election is the explanation of those who believe at Lutzers invitation for them to do so. Peter addresses his first epistle to the elect or chosen ones according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood (1 Peter 1:1-2). The correlation is fixed in God's mind. Calvinists insist that salvation is all of God and all of grace. What they mean by this is that salvation from start to finish in terms of what a person believes, experiences and does is all the work of God. That is clear by some of the content of the message that Lutzer himself preaches. The hardening referred to is a hardening of some ethnic Israelites (not Gentiles). Election, Gods Sovereignty and Is Cain Saved? Should Christians say, "God Predestines People to Hell"? And the experience they create is not even coherent with their election as unconditional. He does not call people to a salvation that he has predetermined they should never receive. While it is true that only God knows those who are his (2 Timothy 2:19), is it also true that he initiates the desire within a human heart only if he knows in advance he or she is going to be "his"? Rather than a joyful, universally applicable salvation message of divine saving love and grace demonstrated in the cross of Christ which can be sincerely offered to all and freely received by all by simple faith alone, the dark cloud of an unconditional deterministic salvation has taken front and center. Lutzer ends up challenging the sinner to receive the salvation God provided by his grace and is offered to all to be received by faith. It is an impossibility in reformed theology. In effect, Lutzer has taught that people determine their unconditional election by fulfilling the condition of believing on Jesus. Introduction This short paper contains a list of common-sense and biblical arguments and counter-arguments against Calvinism and predestination. 1st Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. The Bible speaks of those to whom God comes with the message of salvation and yet they reject him, they reject Jesus and they resist the Spirit. 2nd John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; 2nd John 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. So Lutzer has the sinner determining whether they are among the unconditionally elect by having them believe. The elect or chosen people in the New Testament are believers from all nations. But these always refer to physical blessings as a nation, not to spiritual salvation. And in presenting the gospel in this way Lutzer presupposes libertarian freedom. What all this is proof of is that the gospel must be presented as the good news that it is and the sinner invited and challenged to believe it. God chose Israel in the Old Testament, for example. Since the elect in this scenario believe by their own free choice anyway, what the purpose of Gods then electing them is remains vague. #7. But in the end of the world, the difference will be plain so that the weeds will be bound and burned, and the wheat will be gathered into Gods barn. The gospel is not make sure that you are unconditionally elect by trusting in Christ. The Spirit accompanies the message according to its content as good news to sinners. Of course the Reformed perspective on salvation (soteriology - study of salvation) is that no one with true faith can fall away.

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